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  • Mary feedback

    So here's my full write up on Mary. I've already talked a bit about Mary on the discussions page but this is the entirety of it.
    Some of the things I mention are probably in item augments or bugs so keep that in mind. Also, the point of this post isn't to ask for a numbers buff, but rather improving the functionality and fluidity of Mary's skills.

    Some info to back up my stuff: I played exclusively on Mary for CBT2 and ended at lvl 123. Also played in CBT1 as Audrey to lvl 100+ so I do know what I'm doing.

    General buffs:
    Mary needs some general buffs like an attack speed increase and auto attack range increase. The lower levels are extremely reliant on left clicking mobs and bosses to down them. With an abysmal range, Mary can easily get hit by a frontal cone when she is clearly behind the boss. The attack speed will help with proccing the LB kick which seems to be inconsistent with the amount of times it kicks from just spamming LB.

    Basic Grapples:
    1. Suplex, ankle throw, and aerial grapple have very poor usage on bosses. These grapples are slow and weak while neckbreaker is stronger and is decently fast. The aerial grapple in particular is wonky with its automatic aim. Mentioned in previous posts, it shoots towards a corner on bosses leading to a huge loss in DPS uptime.
    -Aerial grapple should always land directly downwards or allow the player to control the aim. Because these grabs are slow in nature, adding an increased animation speed when used on grab immune targets (bosses, mutants, etc) will go a long way for outputting consistent damage.

    2. Running neckbreaker is in a pretty good spot. I'd like to see a QoL change on it where it latches on to grab immune mobs instead of grabbing a phantom so that she stick to the boss. Also an animation speed increase for grab immune mobs would be cool.

    Long CD Grapples:
    1. Screw piledriver can't be aimed downwards. It also takes a decade to cast. This is like the ultimate grapple skill yet it doesn't feel like it's strong and has an insane CD attached to it.
    -Either lower the CD or make it actually feel like a nuke skill and make it faster. Also fix the ridiculous aim.

    2. Giant swing honestly feels like a waste of mana. The initial grab barely grabs anything which means the throw damage is only going to affect a select few. The spin damage is a joke.
    -With a 38s CD it should grab mobs as it's spinning so it doesn't feel completely useless.

    Buff Skills:
    1. Danger escape would be very good if it actually provides iframes like the description says.

    2. Hera buff ticks down as it's playing the casting animation, losing about 2 seconds on the buff, cmon man.
    -Don't start the buff countdown until the player can move. Also make the animation shorter because it looks like Mary is freezing time but really the boss could be winding up an attack.

    3. Both the fist and grasp buff feel slightly insufficient. For the iron fist, I'm not sure why it adds a large AoE component to it when it does a poor job of mobbing with a 75s CD with a small 10s duration. Both of these buffs are boss tools so it should reflect that. As for the grasp buff, the default duration for it is too short so realistically it expires before Mary can pull off half of her grapples. I can't even say for sure this buff is worth using because the damage bonus is pretty low. A few changes could be made here to accompany the main purpose of these buffs.

    -For iron fist, adding an attack speed bonus will greatly impact its effectiveness. I've used the 15% attack speed augment and the Hera buff together and her attack speed is still slow. This is a MMA fighter, why is she punching so slowly? Adding a cooldown reduction for levelling the skill will also be great as seen in the grasp buff.

    -The grasp buff is probably more difficult to balance. Making it last longer means the boss will be CC'ed for that much longer which is probably going to make it too easy. If the duration is kept the same, the damage bonus could be buffed up or even make it a multiplier instead of an additive bonus.

    An alternative would be to change it to buffing the next x amount of grapples with a longer buff duration and keeping all the same effects of the current buff. Basically this allows Mary to weave in non grapple skills while maintaining the buff and using stacks when needed.

    Passives:
    1. Fracture stacks are inconsistent. They have a time limit that's fairly short. Usually I'll go through the full duration of Hera buff and only see 3-4 fractures. Many times an earlier stack will disappear before I even get a good amount to pop it. It's also shared with every Mary in the party so the damage distribution is really off in this case.
    -Fracture stacks shouldn't disappear when new ones are being applied. They also shouldn't be shared with other Marys in the party, but not sure how this would turn out whether it would only show up on the respective screen or have colour coded fractures. Maybe also increase the chance to apply a stack on all the skills that can.

    2. Sunlight passive is useless, 5s duration on a minute CD that's uncontrollable. Pretty sure all characters have at least 1 useless passive so yeah.

    3. MMA passive stacks drops ridiculously fast. I also mentioned this before and I still have no idea how it can drop stacks as I'm grappling mobs.
    -Keep the stacks up for the duration or drastically reduce the time it takes for it to drop stacks.

    Other Skills (very minor):
    1. Lee Kick express train to the opposite end of the map. The bug fix stopped her from flying out of the map but not across the map.
    -Add a max range so Mary doesn't flip out.

    2. Flash elbow takes too long before the iframe animation.
    -Faster initial cast time. Otherwise very good skill for avoiding damage.

    Slight Skill Change:
    Mary has 3 identifiable skill builds: AA/Grapple/Hybrid. I find it annoying that in an AA build, I can't stop a chain of ankle throw > aerial grapple because ankle throw goes off after any CC due to knockdowns. I think that packing the LB kick along with LB throw into a toggle skill (one or the other) would be a good way to solidify the different play styles.

    -LB kick could have an additional use on kd'ed targets much like the current LB throw. Also makes more sense to kick someone on the ground than to punch in standing position
    -LB throw should have its cool down removed and allow it to proc after a grapple. Since this interferes with aerial grapple, LB throw should take priority (grab > LB throw > aerial > maybe another LB throw depending on how strong it is)


    Overall very fun character and it fits my play style, but the clunky skills kills her dps.
    If I didn't mention a skill it's probably fine or not worth changing because this list is pretty big. If there's any confusion, I can try to expand more. Again, these are not numbers changes because I think she can do the damage, just not consistently or frequently.
    Last edited by [CBT2]Frost; 06-24-2016, 11:26 PM.

  • #2
    I only took Mary to lv100, so feel free to tell me if I have something wrong. I think I had a decent grasp of the character but I wouldn't claim to be a master.

    I think Mary's problems boil down to 3 main things:

    1) Target cap on grapples really hurts her mobbing capabilities
    2) Grapples don't work well at all in parties due to their tiny aoe and tendency to prevent others from hitting stuff
    3) Most of her item skills are pretty garbage, which really hurts her scaling later on due to most characters' heavy reliance on augmenting their skills with item skills.

    Muay Thai Step: Is it just me or is this skill awful? It has terrible aiming and doesn't even do that much damage. And it costs a surprisingly huge amount of mana compared to neckbreaker, I think around 40? That seems like a lot for an attack that only does 220% in a very small area (+40% if you count the fracture). And neckbreaker combos into Aerial Chain Grapple, which gets really strong with its item skill. Maybe there was an item skill for Kick Master that I missed that made it really good.

    Aerial Chain Grapple: This skill gets significantly better with the "Air Hopper" ability, causing Mary to bounce twice in a row. Both hits do the same amount of damage, effectively doubling its damage output, and the second bounce tends to steer back towards enemies, especially useful when fighting bosses. And not only is this attack free, it also recovers a lot of mana. This is the skill I dumped a lot of SP into due to its high efficiency. But this skill is only useful when soloing, it's almost useless in parties due to its grapple+aerial nature.

    Clothesline: I know Ring has an awesome item skill, "Super Flying Finisher", but Clothesline seems mandatory to use Screw Piledriver, Giant Swing, and Beat Down effectively. And I feel like it's important to be able to use those skills effectively, since Mary is kind of lacking in high damage abilities. Clothesline lets you grapple ALL targets affected by Clothesline. Back Breaker works too, but Giant Swing and Beat Down already use up the cooldown and do more damage. Pretty much mandatory if you want to ever use Giant Swing, too, since Giant Swing is garbage on its own. Super Flying Finisher is amazing as an alternative, I think the damage multiplier is in the ~1500% ballpark plus striking, but the cooldown is really long, not to mention you have to get the item skill in the first place. I also had trouble aiming it sometimes, feels like most of Mary's skills work like "you can tell me the general direction, but I will choose the actual target by myself".

    Lee Kick: What a fantastic striking attack! Very cheap, decent cooldown, decent aoe, and very fast animation if you mash it. Too bad it doesn't work like 80% of the time, and even when it does work it sometimes kicks the ground where no enemies are. Can we seriously fix Mary's auto targeting?

    Danger Escape: "Counter Grapple" should be more accessible IMO, it's an amazing item skill and I only saw it once ever, on a low level item. Only comes on hats I think.

    Grapples in general: They are just really bad in parties. Either you get ahold of the enemies first and basically prevent your party members from attacking, or your party members get the first attack and you can't grab anything at all. I feel like this is a huge issue because Mary's ground dps is basically non-existent, so if you can't get ahold of mobs then you do no damage.

    I also feel like I encountered some grapple-immune enemies that also did not produce a phantom when attempting to grapple. This made them really difficult to damage with grapple builds.

    Fracture: This mechanic seems broken. Fractures don't last very long so it's a bit tricky to stack+pop fractures, and the bonus damage isn't even that amazing. I feel like the fracture damage should be a multiplier on the triggering skills rather than a fixed value, especially the pop damage. It would make it more worthwhile to pop multiple fractures with a high damage skill.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by nanastar View Post
      I only took Mary to lv100, so feel free to tell me if I have something wrong. I think I had a decent grasp of the character but I wouldn't claim to be a master.

      I think Mary's problems boil down to 3 main things:

      1) Target cap on grapples really hurts her mobbing capabilities
      2) Grapples don't work well at all in parties due to their tiny aoe and tendency to prevent others from hitting stuff
      3) Most of her item skills are pretty garbage, which really hurts her scaling later on due to most characters' heavy reliance on augmenting their skills with item skills.
      1) Definitely. Neckbreaker is really the go-to mobbing skill to pull mobs that are farther away into the main cluster. Mobbing could be better but because Mary is not the AoE waveclear type I decided to leave this out.

      2) This is something I didn't directly address because there weren't many other Mary players. From my own solo play I can already tell that the constant grapple displacements can be annoying to deal with. Especially using the grasp buff on a boss when stupid skills like screw piledrive takes way too long to cast. Hence my suggestion to increase grapple speeds on bosses and large monsters.

      3) I haven't seen too many different augments so I can't say anything about it. Hopefully there's a list of all available augments in the future.

      As for MT stance, this skill can only shine with quite a few augments. Without augments it's just a movement skill with RB>LB spam and moves about as fast as Hades jump spam.
      MT stance and kick have separate augments but they are essentially the same skill. The kick has an augment for guaranteed fractures and an augment that does a special kick on back hits. MT stance has wall kicks or something that can bounce off the ring ropes for bonus damage. But yeah, pretty useless skill without almost all augments.

      I didn't spec into clothesline because I felt it was unnecessary and mobbing wasn't my main problem. The ring is pretty much a must have to even down a boss in a reasonable amount of time.

      As for phantom grapples, they definitely do damage unless you were out of range. Suplex is probably the only skill that can miss. Aerial and screw piledrive will always do the damage as long as they are within range when casting it even if you can't see a phantom.

      Bonus damage on fractures should be upped, but making it a multiplier makes her damage range extremely wide. Since the natural chance of the proc is somewhere short of 50% for all the skills (augment added 50% for stuff like backbreaker/piledrive and it wasn't proccing 100%), adding something like a 2x multiplier means that a skill like screw piledrive can either do 50k or 100k. On the off chance you don't get a proc for high cd skills, you're pretty screwed for damage.

      Comment


      • #4
        I mean that it seemed like certain enemies didn't get grappled AND didn't create phantoms. Like I'm pretty sure the adds on Enkidu don't create phantoms, so using grapples on them literally did no damage. It seemed like their HP didn't go down at all unless you happened to hit them with a shockwave, which does really low damage anyway. Same with that exploding egg thing on one of the pantheons. The only way I could reliably kill it was using iron fist or a sidekick ability.

        Sidekicks, by the way, help soooo much with her crowd clearing, but it feels bad to rely on them so much.

        Comment


        • #5
          I think in some of her customizing gear had the cool down speed reduction for some of her grappling skills but the percentage was really low. If I remember clearly it was either 10% or less which for a constant grappler, that seems pretty weak. I found myself building a hybrid build.

          Some of the stuff I had were:
          Enhance: Whenever you slay a monster you get 1% damage increase for 5 seconds and it stacks up to 5 times
          Enhanced Flying Kick: 8% Damage increase of flying kick and other related skills (I don't know what other related skills it was talking about...i guess MMA skills?)
          Enhance the Ring: 8% Damage increase while in the ring and to any other related skills ( I guess Wrestling moves)
          Super Flying Finisher: While in the ring press 3 to do an awesome swine dive off of the top ropes
          Enhance Ankle Throw: 2% Damage increase to ankle throw and other related skills
          Royal Rumble: The ring pulls in nearby enemies and does damage to them
          Enhance Suplex: damage from suplex and other related skills increase by 8%
          Overpower: When Mana and HP is above 95%, attack power and speed increase by 7.5%
          Burning Ring: Ring will turn on fire and does damage to the enemies that are inside the ring

          I forgot the rest...LOL Maybe someone else can add to the list?

          I used the MT for movement XD I had low depth so I was squishy LOL and I needed more than her R to dodge attacks XD (Just my random input after playing mary till 50)

          Also I did not like clothesline at all! I prefer the burning and enhanced ring :3

          And I agree with the whole Enkidu part... LIKE IT WAS SO HARD TO FACE HIM! So I teamed up with a bunch of hades and I fought off the baby enkidus while they faced the huge one T__T
          Last edited by [CBT2]JeiBae; 06-25-2016, 01:28 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by nanastar View Post
            I mean that it seemed like certain enemies didn't get grappled AND didn't create phantoms. Like I'm pretty sure the adds on Enkidu don't create phantoms, so using grapples on them literally did no damage. It seemed like their HP didn't go down at all unless you happened to hit them with a shockwave, which does really low damage anyway. Same with that exploding egg thing on one of the pantheons. The only way I could reliably kill it was using iron fist or a sidekick ability.

            Sidekicks, by the way, help soooo much with her crowd clearing, but it feels bad to rely on them so much.

            Didn't really notice anything like that. Some of my screw piledrivers wouldn't grab a phantom on big bosses but the damage went through. As for the eggs, you can suplex it without phantoms or even aerial grab and it does damage although it's ridiculously weak. Stationary mobs like that and the bosses at the end of the story don't have noticeable phantoms. I wish I could run through those bosses again just to make sure. Stationary bosses are definitely rage inducing to deal with as Mary.

            Comment


            • #7
              The 8% damage buffs and enhance stuff are generic stuff, they can be nice but they don't really scale your skills up enough.

              Here are the good ones I know of:

              Super Flying Finisher (on pants I think?) was really good, it did so much damage. I would usually take Ring if I managed to get an item with this skill on it because it's really good on bosses. Burning Ring didn't seem that great, and I haven't seen Royal Rumble before.

              Air Hopper (shirt) is really good for aerial chain grapple like I mentioned before since it basically doubles the damage. There's also Moving Day (weapon) which sucks mobs in after an aerial grapple, it has a really large radius which makes it useful, but doesn't offer additional damage. Suplex also has Lightning Impact (pants) which boosts its damage by around 50%, and Wide Impact (shirt) which gives it a huge shockwave radius and sucks mobs in, but the boosted radius doesn't get the bonus damage on Lightning Impact so I don't think they work well at higher levels.

              Shoryuken had Tiger Uppercut (weapon) which doubled its damage when it triggered, but it's almost impossible to trigger in parties due to mobs scattering everywhere, and it rarely procs on bosses.

              Counter Grapple (hat) made Danger Escape a free striking grapple when it's off cooldown. Damage wasn't affected, still low. Hats had a lot of terrible augments.

              Chair Throw had an ability that reduces the cooldown by 40%, which might have been useful at higher levels but I could never get it on high level gear. Might have some decent crowd clearing capability if combined with the ranged Chair Shot thing, purely due to cooldown and aoe size.

              I know there was some ability called "Shoulder Throw" that caused you to automatically do a striking throw on bosses once per minute, but I never got it so I'm not sure how much damage it actually does. For a 1 minute cooldown it could possibly hit really hard, not sure.

              Originally posted by Frost View Post


              Didn't really notice anything like that. Some of my screw piledrivers wouldn't grab a phantom on big bosses but the damage went through. As for the eggs, you can suplex it without phantoms or even aerial grab and it does damage although it's ridiculously weak. Stationary mobs like that and the bosses at the end of the story don't have noticeable phantoms. I wish I could run through those bosses again just to make sure. Stationary bosses are definitely rage inducing to deal with as Mary.
              I'm pretty sure the big bosses themselves always get hurt by grapple. I didn't have issues damaging the bosses at the end of stories, especially with Air Hopper. It was exclusively on certain adds like Enkidu's spawns and the exploding eggs (the thing that instant kills you if you're too slow) that gave me issues. I think the damage you see is from the shockwave, which does like half the damage of the grapple itself, really weak.

              Also regarding rage-inducing bosses, that clam boss though (malice something)...........

              Comment


              • #8
                You're probably right that it's the shockwave damage. I just don't notice it because the grab on suplex/aerial is only slightly more damage than the shockwave.

                For the augments, these are the ones I remember:

                -Hammer kick: extra damage and larger range when using kick master from behind
                -Some kick master 100% fracture proc. Pretty good with hammer kick and MT spam
                -Some MT augment that kicks mobs to nearby walls or ring ropes for extra damage

                -Dat ***: removes grapple effect from aerial but adds a fracture stack when using it and increases mana regen by a ton. Proper name but sadly it's censored
                -Moving day: after using aerial grapple, all the mobs are stuffed in to a box lol

                -Tornado throw: adds a grapple to tornado kick before doing the actual kick. Very good for mobbing since it repositions all mobs in range to be hit by tornado kick.

                -Iron fist has 2 augments, one that increases attack speed by 15% and another that increases duration by 30%
                -Grasp buff also has a duration increase augment
                -Pumpkin throw: drop a pumpkin on every grapple affected by grasp buff

                -Stampede: allows flying knee kick to be charged. Does more damage with increased size and pulls mobs along with it
                -Tiger knee: flying knee kick does 50% more damage

                -Power lee: reduce lee kick cd by 50%, does more damage, removes striking but says it still procs fractures which it doesn't right now
                -Sliding lee: lee kick slides a bit after hitting the ground and the slide also applies striking

                -Critical strike: when MMA passive is up, crits do bonus damage. I think this augment is by far the most useful

                -Some augment that reduced screw piledriver cd by 0.5s for every target grabbed by any grapple skill. This is limited because all grapples have a low grapple limit.

                -Fracture augment that increased fracture chance on neckbreaker, backbreaker, screw piledrive by 50%. Pretty useless for long cd skills and doesn't even make them a guaranteed fracture.

                -Neckbreaker augment that makes it spin and do more damage. This thing is useless and makes neckbreaker ridiculously long to cast for something like a 50% damage increase.

                -I think it was a chair shot augment that pushed mobs towards a wall instead of throwing a chair if there was a wall/rope nearby.
                -Another chair shot augment that decreases the size but does more damage

                -Hera augment that increases the duration of the buff to the point where it just cancels out the animation time...

                -Buddha palm: when there are 5+ enemies throw a big palm. Very similar to tiger shoryuken, doesn't really happen because of mob spread. You would think that the mobs are grouped but the radius requirement for this to happen is so small.

                -Some furious justice combo that makes it do more damage when there are 5+ mobs
                -Another justice combo augment that makes Mary spin her tonfa as part of the justice combo. Takes longer to cast and does about the same damage really. Also it sounds like Ip Man practising his wing chun on a wooden stake.

                -Danger escape augment that makes her throw spinning tonfas out to the farthest 2 enemies for damage. This skill isn't even a damage skill so why


                Basically Mary doesn't have many augments that add new skills. All Mary has is bonus damage this and bonus damage that. When I played Audrey in CBT1, I liked that she had so many additional skills like bombs, drones, metal bars, and even a flame thrower.

                Comment


                • #9
                  actually Mary only needs like a 20-30% damage buff id say,
                  hell you can get 30% damage reduction in the ring, 40%+ reduc while grappling, danger escape(which can have 30% heal on use like a pots with equip)
                  i even saw 5% life regen/sec grappling on an equip...basicly she is a TANK.

                  the real problem isnt Mary its B damage :P
                  hades was doing quite the damage too but not as much as B.

                  -yes piledriver can aimed down but its very difficult as you dont have much range on camera, it is a lot more easier to aim it up, its also going up by itself if you touch nothing..
                  -hera mask could last longer a little longer, but i did saw some equipments that were adding time to it..which i HOPE brings the music to full lenght as i heard it while bugged and its hot
                  -i was using "stampede" addon on "lee kick" and mach kick(add second kick for 100 mana)..it would let me charge then do 2 SUPER kick which basicly 1 shotted basic mobs in player training with dragging effect putting all mob together!
                  -did you people use "SUPER FLYING FINISH"..with that thing i did a 35000 damage critical at lvl 59 (thats like 2 times the mobs of that level life)
                  ..the damage on it did lower quite a bit in player training, i guess it was dept related..from like 35000 crit to 20000.(same skill but me higher level hitting lower wtf.)

                  the problem with Mary is mostly her mana, you do some skills and its over unless you start basic hit forever..the thing is you need to do grapple skill to regen mana and they cost mana"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Wacker View Post
                    actually Mary only needs like a 20-30% damage buff id say,
                    hell you can get 30% damage reduction in the ring, 40%+ reduc while grappling, danger escape(which can have 30% heal on use like a pots with equip)
                    i even saw 5% life regen/sec grappling on an equip...basicly she is a TANK.

                    the real problem isnt Mary its B damage :P
                    hades was doing quite the damage too but not as much as B.

                    -yes piledriver can aimed down but its very difficult as you dont have much range on camera, it is a lot more easier to aim it up, its also going up by itself if you touch nothing..
                    -hera mask could last longer a little longer, but i did saw some equipments that were adding time to it..which i HOPE brings the music to full lenght as i heard it while bugged and its hot
                    -i was using "stampede" addon on "lee kick" and mach kick(add second kick for 100 mana)..it would let me charge then do 2 SUPER kick which basicly 1 shotted basic mobs in player training with dragging effect putting all mob together!
                    -did you people use "SUPER FLYING FINISH"..with that thing i did a 35000 damage critical at lvl 59 (thats like 2 times the mobs of that level life)
                    ..the damage on it did lower quite a bit in player training, i guess it was dept related..from like 35000 crit to 20000.(same skill but me higher level hitting lower wtf.)

                    the problem with Mary is mostly her mana, you do some skills and its over unless you start basic hit forever..the thing is you need to do grapple skill to regen mana and they cost mana"
                    I already said I'm not talking about pure damage buffs. You could give Mary 50% more damage and she wouldn't be effective because of the frequency of her attacks and grapple mechanics.

                    Damage reduction skills doesn't necessarily make her a tank. You can dodge every single attack in this game if you know how. There's no reason for anyone to be a tank, it's a damage race. The damage reduction tools only make it less punishing to be hit by an attack.

                    Wasn't talking about B and no one should compare dps with B because his damage is insane and will most likely get changed.

                    Mary definitely does not have mana problems. Without any mana augments or skill points, you should have no problem staying above 50% mana. Mary has low cost, low cd skills as well as high cost, high cd skills. If you choose to spam high cd skills, that has to do with your playstyle and you should learn to better conserve mana.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I couldn't even spend my mana fast enough, my final weapon was "Balanced"-type so there were literally times where all my skills were on cooldown and I had over 80% mana. Mary definitely benefits from choosing "Powerful"-type weapons due to her insane amount of mana regen.

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