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  • Remove the Damage Results at the end of dungeons.

    Precursor: If you're going to argue against me, you need to convince me of the merit of the system. I'm not posting to complain about damage among characters, I'm saying the viewable results cause far more harm than good.

    I suggest the removal of the damage distribution percentages that show on the end-of-dungeon results screen. I personally see absolutely no useful data that this can provide, and I have only seen it cause fights, via both arguments in dungeons and [two] shouting matches on the forums.

    The issue is that the percentage isn't specific enough. There's too many variables that skew it for it to be an accurate measure of skill, character strength, or realistic DPS. For example, if I complete a run and someone outdamages me, I have no idea if they did so because of weighted gear, timed buffs, advanced sidekicks, character differences, or the least common: raw skill. Similarly, if someone does less damage than me, I have no idea if they had lag, went afk briefly, had to whisper someone, spent time adjusting skills/equips, had character differences, or the least common: lack of skill. There's plenty more variables too, like SP distribution and VIP perks. Point is, I can't ever, EVER claim that the damage percentage I see at the end of dungeons accurately represents any one proportion, whether it be skill or otherwise.

    Then there's the issue of how it's even calculated. Sure, the most logical idea way for damage to go would be to total all damage done in a run, and then proportion it out. In any other case, there's even more variables added, skewing it even farther! So let's assume it is that way, which we can all agree is the most fair, yeah? If it's a proportion of the total damage, how can you even think to compare (as an example!) Hades and B, when they get their damage from completely different sections? Hades is a crowd control queen, and B is a massive burst king. Hades can easily pull 50% off the crowd mobs, while B takes the other 50% in a 5-second boss rush. These aren't equivalent in any way: their scenarios for gaining percentage points are completely different! It doesn't make sense to compare, even in the most fair data.

    But that's not even the real problem. It's really that by including the data as we have, every player thinks that it's an accurate representation. And because of that, it's the "go-to" method when comparing characters and skill levels. But with all the issues I've shown, it's only natural that every comparison is going to end in a fight. It's only made worse by every side going solely on anecdotal evidence, and missing 3/4 of the data needed. Everyone keeps saying "I outdamage/get outdamaged by x character all the time" but that's a completely flawed argument because 1) it's unverifiable and 2) "x character" might have had any number of variable factors that are unaccounted for.

    I imagine people will still argue for its "general fairness," like saying "well it's accurate since everyone has the same access to the whole game." But you can't just dismiss the massive character differences and the P2W buffs from VIP. You can't just ignore literally dozens of possible influences because they might or might not apply to all parties. Another way people might look at is "Well, I do around 25% in every run, so I'm clearly pulling my weight. The system is fair enough in most cases." But if three people with 200+ Depth run with my 170 Depth in PT, and I get 15% or less, was I really not pulling my weight? And does the data even have a use at that point?

    The one thing this system might do is help find and report leechers, but that could easily be done remotely, hidden from the players. There's nothing a player can currently do to stop a leecher, so right now that's a useless consideration. I literally don't see a single good thing coming from this, and given the number of fights and negative reactions all across the board (I've seen people angry at low numbers angry at themselves for not doing higher, and people calling hax for too high), I find this system useless and indefensible, adding nothing positive to our game.

  • #2
    The system itself is fine. The issue is that this community can't handle it. There's a reason as to why most western mmo don't have DPS meter and we can already see multiple examples of people misunderstanding it's uses.

    People care too much about the dps meter. Even though it encourage you to contribute more.....it's being used as a tool to attack other players.

    I'm conflicted as whether I want it remove or not. I believe that it's great for people to see how much they are contributing and if they need to change anything to increase dps.

    At the same time I can't ignore all these people taking screenshots of dmg chart to save later to attack some random person who weren't even trying to dps.

    Normally even if you remove it though someone will just make a third party dps meter to do the same things as before.

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    • #3
      I would rather see a more detailed statistic something like normal mob dmg,champ/boss dmg(real dps vs boss = all dmg u done/time spent or just total dmg u dealed in %),highest single hit and other useful info.

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      • #4
        i think the system its fine and i would like it to be more detailed like % on boss and mobs instead of overall.

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        • #5
          Everything Loyd posts is approved by me. Did not read but iknow it is good.
          SAD is that GM`s are not reading any of this .

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Kraken View Post
            Everything Loyd posts is approved by me. Did not read but iknow it is good.
            SAD is that GM`s are not reading any of this .
            the reason why we dont get any response at the moment is due to AX16. they will see it, and will take your feedback

            Comment


            • #7
              I'd agree that the MMO community just can't handle this system. As you've pointed it, it's already caused arguments on the forums. In-game hasn't been terribly better.

              Would it be useful to see how much DPS you as an individual are doing? Maybe. But DPS isn't all that matters. Each character has a specific role, and we know some characters aren't as balanced DPS-wise right now. I'm a Nagne, and I know I'll never be DPS king. But some players using that to imply Nagne is a worse character is flawed reasoning. Weaker maybe, but DPS isn't all that there is to playing a character, and your comment about Hades being a crowd control queen shows that.

              I'd be fine with it being gone. No other MMO I've played has needed it and we've been fine without them. It's an interesting novelty, but one I don't think the game's community can handle.

              Originally posted by King
              Normally even if you remove it though someone will just make a third party dps meter to do the same things as before.
              I don't believe users can do that without breaking the Terms of Service for the game. Modifying the game pretty much isn't allowed even for things like voice packs, and what you're talking about seems way bigger.

              Originally posted by Kraken
              SAD is that GM`s are not reading any of this.
              Well, it is a holiday weekend, plus they've been at Anime Expo to boot...

              I expect they'll look towards the forums again today-ish.

              Comment


              • Magyeomie
                Magyeomie commented
                Editing a comment
                -really random- I always love reading your comments! They are always on point LOL XD

              • Suteki
                Suteki commented
                Editing a comment
                Aww, thank you so much c: That's really sweet to hear!

            • #8
              The damage result at the end is the total damage dealt by each person. The percentage is based off of how much damage a single player did proportional to the total damage dealt by the entire party. This is fair data because it's flat out telling you how much total damage each player did that run.

              Originally posted by Lloyd13z View Post

              The one thing this system might do is help find and report leechers, but that could easily be done remotely, hidden from the players. There's nothing a player can currently do to stop a leecher, so right now that's a useless consideration. I literally don't see a single good thing coming from this, and given the number of fights and negative reactions all across the board (I've seen people angry at low numbers angry at themselves for not doing higher, and people calling hax for too high), I find this system useless and indefensible, adding nothing positive to our game.
              The problems you listed are because of the players, not the damage result system. The majority of the player base isn't very mature (look at zone times). It should be pretty obvious damage alone doesn't measure if a character is good or bad. It's been mentioned before in this thread but Hades and Ara are on the extreme side of aoe damage and mob/crowd control while B is on the extreme side of single target burst. If a majority of the total hp a stage has (mob+boss hp) is from mob hp, Hades and Ara will usually be getting the highest damage result in the end. If the majority of the hp in the stage is from bosses, like in third world/pantheon/labyrinth, B will usually be doing the most damage. This only means each character is better in certain areas.

              Personally, I think displaying damage results at the end of the dungeon is fine. You can see the total damage in numbers if you roll your mouse cursor over the percentage displayed. If a majority of the community can't understand or handle the damage results, it could be hidden by default and have an option in settings to turn it on. I don't know where all the fights and negative reactions you've mentioned comes from because I have never had anyone I've played with mention it negatively or fight over it ingame.

              Comment


              • Kraken
                Kraken commented
                Editing a comment
                Regret san so smartu.But its true.

            • #9
              Originally posted by Regret View Post
              The damage result at the end is the total damage dealt by each person. The percentage is based off of how much damage a single player did proportional to the total damage dealt by the entire party. This is fair data because it's flat out telling you how much total damage each player did that run.
              You're not hearing my point. What is this fair data FOR? Yes, I'm glad I can see the total damage dealt, but I literally listed a dozen things that alter the data per player. There's so many things that go into calculating "damage dealt" that it's impossible to USE this data for anything constructive. You can't compare yourself to other players in any way just by total damage dealt. This system is trying to do that, and it fails spectacularly at it.

              To put it in a comparison: When you do a scientific experiment, there's a thing called "controlled experiment." Meaning that to compare the difference in one variable or proportion, all other variables MUST be kept stable, or MUST be accounted for in the results. In our case, damage proportion is being compared, but NONE of the variables are stable. Character, level, stats, gear, skills, SP, skill mods, buffs, potions, VIP, sidekicks, sidekick rank, sidekick skill level, lag, afk time, chat time, dungeon difficulty, enemy buffs, player skill, and RNG are ALL out of control when calculating "damage proportion." Each of these TWENTY factors drastically alters the potential amount of damage you can deal, and almost all of them vary between two players.

              So I ask you again: What can you possibly use this data for that would make it be considered "fair?" A comparison between characters or player skill is impossible. Anything else you might name (leechers, nerf/buff nececssity, etc.) can be done in much better, more objective ways.

              As for the fights, there's been two on the forums already that you can see for yourself. Meanwhile, I don't think either of us have ever seen objective good come from the system, or at least you haven't mentioned it yet.
              Last edited by Lloyd13z; 07-05-2016, 08:40 AM.

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              • #10
                I personally like the system as it gives a rough overview of how much each person contributed to the party and helps you assess where your total dps stands in relation to others. Although, I would prefer a more detailed representation of dps (i.e. trash mobs, champions and bosses) as there are certainly those who contribute more to single target dps than crowd control. Having this extra bit of detail could go a long way preventing quarrels. However, I can't see them removing this feature when it's the only thing that makes PvE competitive. I and many others never experienced negative feedback from dps differences, even at times when our dps percentages were the lowest.

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                • #11
                  I personally like it, while I can see why some people wouldn't and why it could cause issues, I personally really enjoy trying to maximize my damage to try to get the highest damage done. I've never had anyone get angry at me and I've never gotten angry at anyone either.

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                  • #12
                    Originally posted by Ryusei View Post
                    I and many others never experienced negative feedback from dps differences, even at times when our dps percentages were the lowest.
                    Y'all keep saying this, and I keep saying the same thing: There's already been two loud fights on the forums for all to see. If you haven't experienced it yet, you eventually will, unless everyone who plays understands that the numbers are so variable they borderline on random. And that'll never happen. You say you haven't experienced anything negative, yeah? I say there will never be anything positive from it.

                    I see I'm in the minority of opinion, but no one has yet told me any actual uses for this system. Ryusei, you said this makes PvE competitive? I absolutely disagree. No MMO with this many variables would EVER be considered "competitive." In Grand Chase and Elsword, there were constant battles over making PvP "the most fair" by eliminating all possible variables. No skill trees, no cash armor sets, limiting stats to stop the RNG... Competitive means a fair field. If I can outdamage you 2:1 every time just because of the character I play, or because I have a better set of gear, can you really call that "competitive?"

                    Here's a better question: Considering I frequently run PT with 3 people over 100 and one person at 68-70, is it really "fair" that the level 68 stands no chance at ranking well? Is that "competitive" to you? I feel like I'd have a better argument if rewards were given out based on Damage Percentage. Top gets 4 rewards, second gets 3, third 2, and bottom 1. Then you'd all see how random it is, because you'd all actually be affected by it negatively.

                    As far as more detailed stuff, many have suggested it, and while I'm not against it, I only forsee it causing more complicated fights. It's pretty obvious where character strengths are, and who does better at what. I can see my own damage output while I play, so I feel there's no need for personalized details or otherwise.

                    Originally posted by Warz View Post
                    I've never had anyone get angry at me and I've never gotten angry at anyone either.
                    ...Warz, I'm sorry, but what on earth are you talking about?? It was literally done TO you. Your thread is literally one of the fights I'm referring to. From the third post down, all you two did was argue about these stats that literally mean nothing. At the risk of derailing my own thread, your argument is the EXACT reason I'm making this Suggestion. To prevent more pettiness and outbursts that that thread is full of. Because throughout that thread, both sides are wrong, immature, and nothing positive resulted from it.

                    I am not going to tangent by talking about that thread more, so please don't bring that argument here. If anyone does, I won't be able to keep the points in this together, and it'll just be ruining another thread.
                    Last edited by Lloyd13z; 07-05-2016, 10:36 AM.

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                    • #13
                      I personally don't see anything wrong with it, although the points you made are correct. the DPS meter itself did not cause any outrage on the forums, if you're reffering to the B needs nerf thread, well, that was gonna happen regardless if the DPS meter was there or not because people would have realized how strong hallucination is on single target mobs. Although the DPS meter lacks a lot of variables as you stated, it is not a DEFINITE reminder of how strong characters are, it is just an overview for the dmg on the map and that's it. It is there as an extra feature for which some of us enjoy, and the ones who don't enjoy it shouldn't be taking something as a DPS meter so seriously to begin with. The countless times I've ran with pugs and my clans and have gotten completely different results on the meter depending on the map is an indicator that certain characters are better than others in certain scenarios. People who use the DPS meter to determine a "tier" list for the characters are taking this whole thing way too serious.

                      Just my two cents.

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                      • #14
                        [Second post for separate points.] Take these scenarios:

                        1. Player 1 does 80%, Player 2 does 12%, Players 3 and 4 do 4% each. Technically, you can say that clearly Player 1 carried the others, right? Because they must have done so much better in the run? They contributed 80% of the overall damage, they must be amazing!!

                        2. Player 1 does 30%, Player 2 does 28%, Player 3 does 26% and Player 4 does 16%. Much closer, and more likely to occur, right? Everyone contributed about equally, so it was a standard run?

                        --

                        In the first, I imagine two possible ways it could happen: 1) A high level runs in an early story mode dungeon, or 2) the other three players are leeching. In either case, yes Player 1 carried, but the percentage does not show their skill or ability, nor does it show the skill/ability of the other players. You can clearly see why: Low-levels had no chance, and leechers didn't even try.

                        In the second (which I've actually seen happen!), Player 1 was a terrible B player who ran for the bosses while the other players handled the mobs. As soon as the boss spawned, he'd unload on them, killing them before we could reach him. While barely doing any damage to the mobs, he still pulled the greatest amount at the end, despite making the run take longer than had he helped fight the mobs. Still fair to say he contributed the most?

                        Also worth mentioning is that Player 4 caused a swing in percentage as well. If they hadn't been there, and Player 1 wasn't fighting the mobs, that 16% would have been split to the other two players by 9% and 7% proportionally, making Player 1 the lowest rank instead of the highest.

                        You can scale these two scenarios however you need to destroy any arguments that use them. "X Player did 50% that run? They must be amazing!" Scenario 1. "Audrey outdamaged my party by using this method! She doesn't need nerfed!" Scenario 2. This is what happens when you don't take all the variables into account. Damage Dealt or Run Contribution, it's all the same mess in the end.

                        Comment


                        • #15
                          Originally posted by Lloyd13z View Post
                          [Second post for separate points.] Take these scenarios:

                          1. Player 1 does 80%, Player 2 does 12%, Players 3 and 4 do 4% each. Technically, you can say that clearly Player 1 carried the others, right? Because they must have done so much better in the run? They contributed 80% of the overall damage, they must be amazing!!

                          2. Player 1 does 30%, Player 2 does 28%, Player 3 does 26% and Player 4 does 16%. Much closer, and more likely to occur, right? Everyone contributed about equally, so it was a standard run?

                          --

                          In the first, I imagine two possible ways it could happen: 1) A high level runs in an early story mode dungeon, or 2) the other three players are leeching. In either case, yes Player 1 carried, but the percentage does not show their skill or ability, nor does it show the skill/ability of the other players. You can clearly see why: Low-levels had no chance, and leechers didn't even try.

                          In the second (which I've actually seen happen!), Player 1 was a terrible B player who ran for the bosses while the other players handled the mobs. As soon as the boss spawned, he'd unload on them, killing them before we could reach him. While barely doing any damage to the mobs, he still pulled the greatest amount at the end, despite making the run take longer than had he helped fight the mobs. Still fair to say he contributed the most?

                          Also worth mentioning is that Player 4 caused a swing in percentage as well. If they hadn't been there, and Player 1 wasn't fighting the mobs, that 16% would have been split to the other two players by 9% and 7% proportionally, making Player 1 the lowest rank instead of the highest.

                          You can scale these two scenarios however you need to destroy any arguments that use them. "X Player did 50% that run? They must be amazing!" Scenario 1. "Audrey outdamaged my party by using this method! She doesn't need nerfed!" Scenario 2. This is what happens when you don't take all the variables into account. Damage Dealt or Run Contribution, it's all the same mess in the end.
                          As you're correct, these meters aren't being used the way you think you are, in my 190 levels of pugging and farming, I haven't met anyone who literally put that much thought into the meter, we just complete the dungeon, move on, we don't bash or call each other out because of the meter. People who do this are completely misinformed on how certain maps favors other heros. As you said, what changes if the meter gets taken away? player 1 is still going to run around and leech and nuke the boss and possibly pull most damage depending on the map, only difference is now nobody knows how much who did. To me it seems like you're running dungeons with a bunch of egotistical players who solely rely and depend on the meter to stroke their egos. Ill repeat myself from my previous post, NOBODY should be using the meter to determine a tier list as different maps have different performances for different heros. Posts about "x hero should get buffed/nerfed cause meter dmg blahblah" shouldn't be taken seriously. It's not what it's there for.

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